The Senator representing Benue North-East in the National Assembly, Dr Gabriel Torwua Suswam(CON), is Chairman, Senate Committee on Power. In this interview with newsmen in Abuja at the weekend, immediate past Governor of Benue State who is a Member of the Conference Committee of the National Assembly on the petroleum Industry Bill(PIB) spoke on a number of national issues, including the foreign loans obtained by the present administration; reforms in the nation’s power sector and nationwide insecurity among other topical issues.

DAILY ASSET News Editor, Orkula Shaagee who was part  of  the  interview brings the excerpts.

Petroleum Industry Bill and Provision for Frontier Exploration:

It is not new, the NNPC had always had it, it is just that the money meant for frontier exploration is little.

These are monies that were housed in the accounts of NNPC for exploration so that wherever they suspect that they can find oil, that money is used to go there and explore.

Now, what has happened with the PIB is that people are saying it is okay, we need more money for frontier exploration. For instance, what is there for us in Benue is that, the Benue trough is said to be an area that has large deposit of oil and other minerals; so if you have more money under the frontier exploration, Benue could probably benefit by going there to do proper exploration and find oil; because there are indications that oil is there.

The other Senators are saying that the money or percentage for frontier is too high. The issue of five percent or three percent for host communities is another one.

Some people are arguing that if you give host communities five percent, it is too much money to that area. For instance, we have Niger Delta Ministry, we have the NDDC and we have the 13 per cent derivation, and these are all monies intended initially to address the issue of devastation of the environment there; but all these monies to some extent have been misappropriated.

So, people are saying why should we give them so much money again for the same purpose, but the South-South are arguing that this is the first time that there is a direct law that is going to be impacted directly on the host communities. So, these are controversial issues within the Senate, and you can hear the Southern Senators making statements in respect of the issue of host communities.

That is for the PIB, and there are other little areas that are not as controversial and contentious as that one but we are dealing with it at the committee level. We have met and the meeting continues on Monday for us to harmonise the position of the House and then that of the Senate so that we will have a bill that can be sent to the President for assent.

Electoral Act Amendment and Provision for Electronic Transfer of Results

The report of the committee has not been presented on the floor of the Senate yet, all that has been happening is in the realm of speculation, so when the committee presents its report to the Senate, we will now know whether that provision for electronic transfer of results has been removed or tempered with. As it stands now, all of us are speculating. I am not a member of the Electoral Committee, and so we are just speculating that it has been tempered with.

Once that is presented, probably next week Tuesday, we will know where we stand on that and then we can comment competently on that.

For now, I will say that whatever people are saying is speculation. Let’s have the bill on the floor, then we can move forward from there.

 Views on Provisions for State Police in the nation’s  Constitution Under Review

On the issue of State Police, as a former governor, even as a sitting governor then, I opposed it because I know that most of us don’t have the maturity to control state police. The proposal in the constitution for amendment is that governors will appoint Commissioners of Police, and I can’t be party to that because I know the implication for that. That will be recipe for complete disintegration of the  country, except we want that.

Because as a governor there is no way you will come to my state and “misbehave” and I won’t charge you for nuisance and put you in jail. And when it comes to election, you know that I can appoint a Commissioner of Police. My mother can be Commissioner of Police, my cousins will be the DPOs here and there, and my lackeys can be in positions; so anywhere somebody is my opponent politically, that person is gone. So, we can’t practice state police.

We can’t start comparing ourselves with developed countries. These people have gone past where we are today, so we have to wait until we are matured enough, then we can get state police.

I give you an example of the local government electoral bodies. As a sitting governor, there was no way any other party could win, even a councillorship seat. So, what could be the difference between that and state police? Except if we are inviting anarchy. State police is something that nobody should even think of.

Yes, people are saying that because of the level of insecurity in the country, and feel that if we have our own state police, we will be able to contend with that, but it will even be worse. The consequence of that will be worse than what we are trying to solve.

Look at the example of local government electoral bodies. I was a Governor and conducted local government elections and no other party won a councillorship seat. So, as a Governor I have a Commissioner of Police, how will my party lose election? How will that happen? Is that possible? Some of these things, some people argue out of ignorance, some out of mischief and some out of genuine desperation.

But we need to sit down and think properly what we need to do about the security situation. I even prefer community policing that is properly put together. Community policing is different from state police if it is properly put together; that is what we need. We can decide to decentralise the federal police in a manner that is under the same control.

When you talk of state police, all the state governors will buy arms in the name of state police and you know what that means. When you are recruiting state police, my political boys will be in the state police. So let us not think about state police, it is not an area to go.

So, as a sitting governor, I vehemently opposed it, and till now I am opposed to it, and anywhere it is raised, I oppose it. If you go back to history, there were Native Authority Police but they were disbanded because of the excessive use of force.

The issue is contentious, and my personal opinion is that I am totally opposed to State Police. It is so contentious that when it came before us at the committee saddled with that, it was so contentious that we had to set up another small committee to go and fine-tune how it will capture how it will be acceptable to everybody because people who feel strongly against state police also stated their strong position. Even when we voted, we couldn’t arrive at a consensus, so we set up a committee within the Constitutional Review Committee to go and look at it. We spent four days retreat at Transcorp on constitutional review, and in most areas we could not agree on the intended amendments.

So, it is ongoing. We will resume after the Sallah, and I hope by then, we will do further consultation with our constituents and be able to agree on some of the contentious areas.

Creation of Ushongo and Guma State Constituencies in Benue State

Well, I was an undertaker. For instance, the issue of Ushongo State Constituency has been in court since 2005. After the court gave judgment in favour of that constituency, the procedure is that the two chambers of the National Assembly will have to approve before INEC will go and do demarcation, then conduct elections. That is for Ushongo.

Why I was doing that of Ushongo, I mentioned it to the governor, who also said there is that of Guma that the court passed judgment and said I should join the two. For Guma, it was not as lately as 2005.

When I was Governor, I tried to get that constituency; unfortunately I was unable to do that because the National Assembly was unable to give approval for INEC to do that; but luckily when I became Senator representing that area, I took it upon myself and was able to lobby my colleagues to approve it; We sent it to the House for concurrence and that has been done. So, we sent a letter to INEC, and as we talk now the process is ongoing and in the next two weeks I believe the process of coding will be completed and be ready for the 2023 elections.

Proposals for Establishment of  Regional Development Commission

Establishment of regional development  Commissions has to be properly defined. You can’t just have a development commission; it has to be properly defined. We have just passed the HYPERDEC. HYPERDEC is the one affected by the activities of hydroelectric power. So when you say a development commission, it has to be properly defined.

The North-East Commission is properly defined; they were affected by the activities of banditry in that place. So, it is intended to reconstruct the place. If we have to establish development commission in all the zones it has to be properly defined.

HAPERDECT is for the North-Central and they have taken off. We have just screened the people appointed and they have started work. So, if people want that, let them define it properly.

Private Member Bills for Establishment of Higher Institutions

Well, let me not be conclusive on that, but you have been following it since 1999, and I don’t know how many of these institutions have been assented to by the President. No President will assent to the bills for establishment of institutions passed on the floor of the National Assembly.

When the Executive arm wants they establish institutions like President Goodluck Jonathan did when he established Federal Universities and gave it to the zones.

The manner lawmakers bring these bills is more of political; if not every village will have a university or one college or the other. I think, to a large extent some of us are playing politics with these institutions because as far as I know there is none of them that has been signed by any President. The process is that from the Senate it needs concurrence of the House of Representatives, and most times they don’t have it.

It is the same controversy about the Adikpo Polytechnic because the bill needed the concurrence of the House of Representatives; so it never existed. It never even reached the stage to be transmitted to the President for assent. Most of them, once they are passed, that is where it ends.

Foreign Debts

I am very worried on the level of borrowing we engaged in. Nigeria, as it stands, we have about N33 trillion because we are borrowing every year to fund the budget, and what is the implication of that?

We have a deficit in this year’s budget. Initially, the deficit was about N5 trillion, but with additional borrowing, next year’s budget deficit will be in the neighbourhood of N8 trillion. So, how do you sustain that?

First we have breached the Fiscal Responsibility Act, which provides that 3 percent should be in the threshold. For last year, it was 4 percent. The same laws that we made, we breached them. Now they are saying we should amend the Fiscal Responsibility Act to accommodate any kind of borrowing that we intend to do.

What the deficit has done is that it has messed up the exchange rate, it has brought in double digit inflation, and the economy has become unmanageable. Both the macro and micro economic activities have completely broken down. So, continuous borrowing is mortgaging the future of our children.

But without sounding like an opposition person, I want to say that, for any government to continue to borrow to fund the budget, we are completely heading towards disaster.

They brought a supplementary budget of N900 billion and the deficit is about N842 billion. I have never seen a budget like that. That is a bad budget, and what that means is that it has added to the stock on the deficit.

So, for 2022 budget, the deficit will be in the neighbourhood of N8 trillion, which means ab initio that budget is not implementable. Even to implement this budget, most of the financing aspects are not realisable.

So, for me, as an Assembly that wants to cooperate with the Executive, so that we will not be seen as those that are stopping them from working, we have continued to approve requests from the Executive that requires us to allow them to borrow to finance infrastructure; whether these infrastructure are seen is another thing. But we will continue to approve it whether they are on ground or not.

Immunity Clause for Executives

The immunity clause in the constitution was intended to protect those who occupy public offices from serious distraction, because if you don’t have any form of protection in a society like us from any form of prosecution while they are in office, no person can work. So I think that can be modified but I cannot subscribe that immunity should be removed from the constitution for the office of the President and Governor. If we do that none of them will work, everyday they will be in court because the decisions you take as a Chief Executive affect either negatively of positively for different people. So, those who suffer negative impact will take you to court, and so I think the immunity clause should remain.

Uni-camera National Assembly

As to the need to make the National Assembly a uni-camera system, we were practising that, I don’t know what was in the minds of the proponents of the 1979 constitution, but I think they felt that apparently because of our size and diversity if you make the National Assembly a uni-camera most communities will be under-represented, and so we adopted the Presidential system so that if you don’t have enough representation in the Senate, you will have enough representation in the House of Representatives, and that is why there is equality of representation in the Senate.

There is no basis for states like Bayelsa and Nasarawa should have the same number of Senators as Lagos, but that is equality of representation. Now Lagos and Kano are bigger, so they have more members in the House of Representatives. So, I think it is to balance our diversity that the Presidential system was adopted. If you scrap the bi-cameral system, you will go back to people crying of marginalisation.

For instance, if you have a uni-camera system, we are going to have a lot of problems of representation. How many people are you going to select in a state? Are you going to select one per local government?

So, when people say such things for political expediency they are not prescribing how that will be carried out. So I don’t think that makes sense to me, it can only make sense if you prescribe how it can be carried out so that there could be proper representation of all that are supposed to be represented.

The current system, though expensive was intended to solve this problem of the diversity and peculiarity that we have in the country.

Agitation for Separation

Once you have bad governance, people will continue to agitate for all kinds of things, but if you have good governance all these will not come up.

In actual sense, a Tiv man, who is in my village, it does not matter to him who is the President if he is getting what he is supposed to get, which is good road and light. He will not even agitate for local government. But because people are not getting  that, they feel that if they stand on their own they will do better; and it may not be necessarily so but that is the feeling.

For me, it is bad governance that has brought in this level of agitation. People are mot feeling protected, and that is so when you have killings that have become common. So, when people are not getting the required protection, they say okay it is because my person is not in position that is why we are at the receiving end, but don’t blame them.

The only way to solve it is to provide good governance. Let the people feel protected otherwise we have already been classified as a failed state, the reason being that all the indices of a failed state are present in our current situation. If not, how can over 100 children  be kidnapped and nothing is done and nobody is arrested?

So, under such circumstance, people will continue to agitate to have their own countries and all of that.

Constituency Projects Delivered since Inauguration as Senator representing Benue North East Senatorial District.

Well some of them are Constituency Projects. Constituency projects are those that you facilitate under the national budget. As National Assembly member there are some projects that you facilitate that can impact meaningfully on your constituency. So, as chairman of the Power Committee, most of the projects I have done are in the area of power, such as solar power, mini grid and also construction of classrooms. The one that I have done that is personal, using my personal money not through the budget is the distribution of Keke NAPEP(Tricycles), which I distributed last week to impact on my constituents.

There are a lot of projects like boreholes that I have facilitated through the national budget.

We are going on recess, I think probably next week, so I intend to start commissioning virtually all the projects in all the local government areas. In each of the seven local government areas, I have done  seceral projects. But the biggest of them is the mini grid, I have done two of them; one is at Anwase(Kwande LGA). That will serve about 300 households, and we have already done the networking that will provide light 24/7. I have also done another one at Atekombu in Ushongo Local Government Area, where it will also supply light 24/7 for over 300 households as well.

These are actually the biggest projects I have done, and are very, very impactful before these villages because may be in the next 20 years they wouldn’t have had light, but today they are having more electricity than I have here. As far as there is sunlight they will continue to have light.

There are a number of other ones that I have done, including the passing of the two constituencies that have been outstanding since 2005.

Poor Performance of the Power Sector

That question alone will take me like 30 minutes to answer because there a lot of issues in the power sector. When the power sector was unbundled, it was intended to enhance efficiency; that was the intention; that if you put it in private hands, there would be more efficiency because they will run it as business and people will pay when they have light. But unfortunately the unbundling was done in haste, so there were a lot of challenges that the unbundling confronted as you can now see. Generation and distribution were in the hands of private entities and transmission in the hands of government. They need to be in synergy, they need to synchronise so that if you generate 5000 megawatts, transmission should be able to weed that 5000 megawatts and distribution should be able to distribute that 5000 megawatts but that is not the case and there are reasons for it.

So, it is question that will take time for me to break it down. But I am just giving you a summary of what has happened. Now, the distribution companies said they inherited dilapidated infrastructure and the transmission said the infrastructure for transmission has been long overdue. So, there are technical nonsense as the will power.

For generation, most of the thermal power plants, because these are the ones that use gas, they have gas issues because there is lack of gas infrastructure. For the hydro ones, once it is dry season and there is little water, they have to close some of the turbines. So, it is mixture of a whole lot. What they need to do is to sit down and do proper planning to synchronise generation, transmission and distribution that is why the Siemens contract was meant for. Where the Siemens contract is now is another question for another day.

As we talk now, generation has dropped drastically to between either 2000 or 3000 megawatts, and so they have to share light. So it is complex thing, except the government decides to be serious and face the power issue with all seriousness, we will continue to experience this in the next 10 years.

Southern Governors’ Demand for 2023 Presidency and Anti-grazing Law

Well, I will answer that question by referring you to what the Greeks say. The Greeks classified human beings into three broad categories. They said there are categories who are idiots, there are categories who are tribesmen and there are categories who are citizens. The agitation of the Southern governors is because we fall into the categories of idiots and tribesmen, we don’t have citizens.

Who is an idiot? An idiot is somebody who, if you say is a correspondent of a newspaper, his writings are all lies, he doesn’t write the truth. If you put him in an office, he must steal money, if you give him an exam, he must cheat. A tribesman sees everything from the prism of his tribe, and they classified tribe as not only religion but that if you put him in a position and you are not from his tribe or religion, he will not get anything meaningful. That is a tribesman.

But a citizen is one who, if he drives  by 2: AM and the traffic light shows red, he would stop until he is shown the green light to go. We don’t have citizens, we are tribesmen and idiots. So, we will continue to agitate for positions of importance to come to us because is the only time we feel that we belong and we can patronise our own people. If we are citizens it will not matter to us where the President comes from. That answers the question.

So, we don’t have citizens and that is why we are agitating for all these. But they said an idiot can become a citizen by training and a tribesman can become a citizen by orientation. So, let us train ourselves so that we can move out of these categories.

Open Grazing Prohibition Law

When I was governor, I chaired the committee set up by the National Economic Council to look at the issue of conflicts between herdsmen and farmers. Myself and then Governor Murtala Nyako. But when Nyako was removed as Governor unceremoniously, I became the sole chairman and visited many countries, including African countries to be able to put a report together; and it will interest you to know that I went to a country as small as Namibia, 40 percent of beef consumed in Europe comes from Namibia, and they ranch their cattle. The cattle are not roaming all over the place in Namibia. In the first place they don’t have the land. So, I don’t know why ranching cannot be done here.

And when we came back we presented a beautiful report and it was unanimously accepted by all the governors at the time in the council. In that report, we recommended that a N100 billion seed money be provided where CBN should provide N100 billion so that any state that is interested in ranching can come and take that money.

We also recommended a model that when you are doing a ranch, it should be where there is school, dam and grow grass for the cows so that they don’t move any how; but when we lost election, that report was jettisoned but it is still there and anybody can dust it and work on it.

But it didn’t start here. If you watch western movies, it reflects the stories of what used to happen when those herders were moving herds across America; there were lots of conflicts. They call them cow boys. So, what they are acting is what used to happen in America. America overcame it because they decided that we have to ranch. The same thing in Britain and all over Europe it was the same problem they had. So we are at that stage where they were – conflict between herders and farmers. So we must do ranching to reduce conflict between herders and farmers.

Governor Nyako has a big cattle farm, and he has been an advocate of ranching that cattle must be kept in one place.

So, ranching is the way to go, there is no two ways about it. No matter how long we delay it, its the only way to go if we must solve this problem of herders and farmers conflict.